Get Social - The Connected Leader Podcast - Ian MacRae, Head of Workplace Psychology at Clear Review

Michelle Carvilll: Hello and welcome to the Get Social Connected Leader podcast, where I, Michelle Carvilll, interview business leaders around the practicalities of how in this hyper connected digital age, they are embracing digital technologies to tune in and connect and communicate. You can find all episodes of the podcast together with show notes via our website, Carvilllcreative.co.ukforward/podcasts.
Michelle Carvill: In this episode of the Get Social Connected Leader podcast, I'm delighted to interview Ian MacRae. Ian is a psychologist and author of four work psychology books including "High Potential", "How to Spot, Manage, and Develop Talented People at Work", and "Myths of Work: The Stereotypes and Assumptions Holding Your Organization Back". He has a BA in psychology from the University of British Columbia and an MSC from University College London. He developed the high potential traits indicator, a personality assessment, which predicts workplace potential and it's been completed by over a hundred thousand people around the world. He is a work psychology consultant and speaker.
Michelle Carvill: Okay, so Ian, it's wonderful to have you on the podcast. We are actually writing a book together for Kogan Page around social media, so, that's a great thing, and I'm sure some of that will come out through our discussion. But that's not really the reason I wanted to get you on the podcast. The reason I wanted to get you on the podcast is, of course, because you are indeed a social leader. You run your own business, you are active on social media and of course you are a millennial, so this is your world, right?
Ian MacRae: Oh yeah, the dreaded word, millennial. I mean, yes, in a lot of senses that's true because I did grow up with social media and using it in different forms since I was probably 15 or 16, before I even had Facebook or any of that. But it's an interesting question because I think the stereotype is obviously that millennials are social media obsessed, you can find all of their lives online, which hopefully you can't find all of my personal life online. But yeah, it'll be interesting to talk about that because I started off using social media kind of for personal use or connecting with friends, kind of personal communication, but over, well, probably 15 years the way I used it has changed quite a lot, especially as more of my work in life has become business instead of personal. So I think we've probably got a lot to talk about there.
Michelle Carvill: So you started using it because it's the territory and you kind of grew up in, I mean, it's just something that you do, but now that you're using it for business, tell me a little bit about how it's evolved and what you actually do use it for now in your business. And I know I'd like to get also to the, you touched on it there about the personal and the business life, which when you are leading your own business, it's often inextricably linked. So tell me a little bit about what you actually do with social media.
Ian MacRae: Yeah, well, right now more than I ever have, partly because it has more kind of business and professional focus. So I tend to use that most having professional conversations and sharing stuff about what I've done, what I've written, that kind of stuff.
Michelle Carvill: And that's on LinkedIn.
Ian MacRae: That's on LinkedIn. Yeah. I do use Twitter a bit, not a whole lot, but I also use YouTube quite a bit more recently doing videos and posting interviews and stuff with other experts and professionals and talking about some of the work that I've done. So that's mostly what I use. I used to use Facebook all the time for personal use. I have a business page now, but I barely use it anymore, and I think that's about it for the platforms I use.
Michelle Carvill: What do you find useful about social media?
Ian MacRae: I think that kind of direct connection is really useful because I was trained and educated in kind of science and psychology, and so a lot of the work you end up doing in those fields doesn't have a lot of kind of personal communication with a larger audience. So even if you're writing a book or writing a scientific paper about psychology, it tends to get put off somewhere else. Or the books tend to have a certain type of impact, but you can't speak to people in the same kind of interactional way. So I've really, really enjoyed that about social media is that almost in real time, people can comment, ask you questions, talk to you about stuff. Same with putting some of the topics that I've talked about in books into YouTube videos. It looks more in that people can comment on it, ask you questions, they ask if you're going to post a different video on another topic in the future. I do like that you can have those more kind of direct interactions.
Michelle Carvill: Yeah. And it's more human in many ways, isn't it? Because it's really you. I mean, you're not hiding behind a facade. It's really Ian MacRae with your viewpoints, sharing your professional views.
Ian MacRae: Yeah, exactly. And I like that you can be challenged on stuff as well. So if you do make a mistake or say something that someone disagrees with, you can have that conversation, sometimes in a constructive way, it's not always constructive, but yeah, you do have to be more kind of direct and authentic because you're going to have that personal interaction potentially.
Michelle Carvill: Yeah. And so about that being more direct, more authentic, this is a question that comes up for me a lot when I'm working with organizations, training people, is that how do I blend my personal life and my business life? Do I have to? Is there a need to do that? What's your view on that whole balance between Ian MacRae the professional and Ian MacRae from a business perspective and your personal perspective. What's the balance that you utilize or you play with on social media?
Ian MacRae: Yeah, that's kind of an ongoing question I've had with myself too because as I've started using social media more for business, as I've put more stuff professionally online, I've had to seriously reexamine some of the personal stuff I've had previously. Because when I was 17 or 18 I didn't care about what I was posting, and I should have, so there has been kind of an ongoing process of saying, "Okay, what personal stuff do I want to keep public and why it should be on my Facebook. Like a year ago, and looking at that balance, it's tough one to do.
Ian MacRae: I think personally it is good to have kind of a distinction and especially for your kind of work and professional life, being really clear and honest with yourself too about why you're on it, what you're using it for, what you're prepared to share on specific channels or what you're prepared to share publicly. To be perfectly honest, now I don't really use personal social media that much anymore for publicly available social media public profile stuff, just because it's kind of been part of a long evolution of how I've used it and getting that balance right.
Ian MacRae: And I think part of it has more been how the technology and the platforms have changed too, because a lot of the platforms now that they're more ubiquitous, way more widespread, for me, there's been less control over whoever has access for it. They know looking at which groups you're connecting with and stuff. So I've tried to make more of a distinction between kind of personal communications and professional social public media, but it's a question I'd had to kept asking myself as these technologies evolve, as my career evolves, what are the barriers? What are the boundaries? And what do I want to put publicly out there?
Michelle Carvill: You're absolutely right. They have evolved and I think at one point there were different platforms that had very, very clear perspective and you're connected with very different people on different platforms, but as more people engage with different platforms, you start connecting with them on various platforms, and then it can become a little bit more complicated.
Ian MacRae: Right, exactly. I mean for me, like when my family started adding me on Facebook, I have to change the way I use Facebook. Very clear example of that.
Michelle Carvill: Yeah. I just want to pick your brains on this because it is the space that you operate in and I know you have some views about this because of the stuff we're writing together. About social media in the workplace, you know, we're talking here about you and the podcast is for leaders, but of course from an organizational perspective, what advice or what do you see with the organizations that you're working with around workplace social media?
Ian MacRae: I think it's the same issues we've been talking about, about barriers getting blurred, people not being sure what's appropriate, who should you add, who should you connect with on social media. So I mean, the first thing I think is really important is that basically all the traditional rules of the workplace, positive communications, avoiding harassment, not crossing boundaries, all of those have to be applied very directly to social media, right? So if something is not appropriate to say in the workplace, you shouldn't be saying it to someone on WhatsApp or you maybe shouldn't be saying it to a WhatsApp group or posting it as a direct message for that.
Ian MacRae: So I think that's kind of a very basic thing. Again, I think sometimes the lines get blurred, but it's really important for leaders especially to respect boundaries, again, with who you're communicating with or who you're connecting with on social media. I was talking to someone just a couple of days ago actually, and their boss had added them on Facebook but this applies to any kind of private social media network, and they thought it was really an uncomfortable situation because they were kind of negative spoke to accepting that and to declining it. Right? So is this good, is your boss going to get mad at you if you're not friends with them on Facebook, are they going to put a personnel slide, but then also did they want to open up everything they had on that platform for their boss to see? Maybe not.
Ian MacRae: And there is that something that I thought was interesting is that superior shouldn't send a friend request on a private network, and that way because there's a power imbalance there, right? So they were just talking about how it creates a really awkward, difficult situation. I think that's easily remedied because there's all sorts of internal communication networks that companies have. Really, companies should have social media guidelines about which platforms you can use to connect with employees during working hours, maybe some guidelines about outside of working hours and just studying that kind of advice because not everyone knows how to do it. And I think people generally want to do it well, but aren't always sure how.
Michelle Carvill: Absolutely. And there's often guidelines, but they are something, it's almost like the employee handbook, isn't it? You're given this huge document and it's kind of, "Oh, okay." It doesn't necessarily bring them to life. And that's one of the things I often think. You don't want to restrict people from communicating effectively, but in the same breath you know if there are challenges, you just need to be continuing to support and communicate what the expectations are on those platforms.
Ian MacRae: Yeah, exactly. And sometimes that has to be worked out kind of individually or within groups. I've had a few times people who have had my phone number for a work related. "We can talk back and forth on here the line, because I said I don't use this for work. Like this is not a platform I use for workplace discussions," and it's kind of an awkward thing to say because you don't want to offend the other person, but again, sometimes it's good to have separate platforms you just use for private personal communication.
Michelle Carvill: Yeah, absolutely. And I suppose if an organization has got an internal WhatsApp or they're using another tool like a Yammer or Slack or whatever those internal comms look like for business, that's kind of where the conversation stay, isn't it?
Ian MacRae: Yeah, exactly. And again, if you have a private group that you can potentially mute on weekends or some days, that's fine as long as the expectations are clear and there are some sort of kind of guidelines or boundaries there. Because the thing that annoys me is when someone sends you an email and then sends you a message on three different platforms saying, "I emailed, just checked [crosstalk 00:11:17], are you okay? Like are you still there?" Or like on Saturday or something.
Michelle Carvill: Yeah. "Why haven't you responded?"
Ian MacRae: Yeah, exactly.
Michelle Carvill: Yeah. The pressure. That leads us into an interesting, I suppose another question about time. And time management when it comes to social media it's a thing I get asked about all the time. Particularly you're busy, you're leading your own business, you're writing, so how do you fit social media into your life, particularly from a work perspective?
Ian MacRae: Yeah, from a work perspective, that's a good question too because I think you do have again set your own personal limits and decide what times are good. I mean, I only use professional social media during working hours, so I try and restrict it to that partly because I have had times where I just got too out of control and I needed to stop checking stuff that there wasn't anything new on. So there are sometimes like time management software is good, especially when it fits within a certain kind of specific time-frame. Personally, I find those are really good for teams and for group work, but I actually don't use any digital time management software for managing social media posts or anything like that. I find a paper and pencil works fine.
Michelle Carvill: So and you have been utilizing social channels for a long time, they've been part of your life, personal business, what would you say has been your biggest learning so far around social?
Ian MacRae: Yeah. I don't know if there's one kind of big main lesson I can take out of it, but I think the most important thing that I've learned is just to keep evolving and changing with the technology. And to do that you just need to use trial and error, in my experience. I think don't be afraid to test out new technologies, new platforms, different methods. Don't be afraid to abandon something or delete a profile or a network that hasn't been working or hasn't really shown any results. But just to keep up and keep learning with that and experiment with what works, and it's relatively easy to do because you can ask people and measure your results. Because the feedback is so immediate and because the communication is so immediate, you can really get instantaneous feedback to see what's working, what isn't working.
Ian MacRae: If a message is getting picked up on it, if people are talking about it, engaged with it, then that's great. And sometimes whether it's the strategy, whether it's the platform, sometimes things are just a flaw. So I think trial and error and experimentation is really good. And I think if you have some other kind of guidelines and you've got a clear strategy that we've talked about before, and you're really fitting it with that, then you can make sure that you can be relatively free within that to try different stuff. But I think the main thing is just to keep learning and keep evolving and be open to trying new stuff.
Michelle Carvill: And I agree. And I think that people have an expectation that they have to go out there and they have to be on every channel, and they have to be broadcasting really professionally, but it really can be small steps, can't it?
Ian MacRae: Yeah, and we've talked about that before too and I think I've given some people this advice that if you only have a limited amount of time or a limit budget or you understand one platform fairly well, then stay small and focus there. And from there you might want to branch out or you may want to expand on what you're currently doing, but you don't need to take on the entire world at once. You don't need to be on every single platform, every single network, especially if you've got a limited time or budget, focused activities are way better. It's like trying to do an advertising campaign. If you put the message everywhere, huge mass media stuff and spend all your money, it's not necessarily going to get you better results than if you're focusing on a particular project or niche or kind of marketing tactic or group of people. I think sometimes small is better.
Michelle Carvill: Yeah, absolutely. Quality of the quantity every time. And we are in a very highly digitally connected age and there's a lot to talk about the changes required for successful modern leadership. I know we're touching a little bit about this in our book about how things are evolving. What's your view about this, the digitally connected leader and how important is it for leaders to be digitally literate?
Ian MacRae: I think the literacy is really important. It depends on the size of your company. Sometimes you can have people around you who help you out with that a bit. But I think a lot of the traditional kind of business skills and leadership skills really translate almost directly onto social media and online. So it's not like you're throwing out the entire rule book, throwing out everything you've learned. It's just trying to apply it into a new technology, into a new medium of communication essentially.
Ian MacRae: So if you kind of speak and act in a particular way, then it's best to take that on to social media. If you have a really great relationship with your employees, really kind of personal relationship with your company and the people who work there, then that is going to translate directly on to social media. So I think sometimes people try to learn a bit too much in a sense, and try and create too much of a manufactured profile and try and learn the entire social media rule book and throw away the old school management rule book, which I don't think is always helpful because if something has been working for your business, in your marketing plan, communications plan, the way you manage employees has been working before, then all of that is going to translate and apply directly into the online world.
Ian MacRae: So again, keep it focused and try and learn the kind of smaller lessons about how to apply what you already know, the things you do really well already in your business and move those online.
Michelle Carvill: Perfect, perfect. Good advice. In the spirit of getting to know the leader a little bit, I've got these quick fire questions that I'm literally just going to fire at you, Ian, and we'll see where we go with them. So this is kind of, off the social media topic and just talking about you. Are you okay with that?
Ian MacRae: Yeah. That's fine.
Michelle Carvill: Fantastic. Okay, so the first question I've got for you, if you could change one thing in the world, what would it be?
Ian MacRae: One thing. I'm going to have to say something related to climate change. I would say making it a number one political issue internationally. I think there's too many different things to do to narrow it down to one specific thing the [crosstalk 00:17:13] but probably the biggest for me.
Michelle Carvill: Okay. I'm with you all the way on that. And what about a book? Which book have you read recently that's inspired you?
Ian MacRae: Recently I've been reading Richard Dawkins books. Again, I've read them over and over and because I do science writing and kind of a psychology, science writer, researcher, I find that some of the best science writing I've ever read just in the way the kind of passion, enthusiasm, kind of fantastic enthusiasm for the natural world and biology and its subject, I ended up reading those over and over and again and as a writer I find it really inspiring.
Michelle Carvill: Fantastic, fantastic. And yeah, he's great and they deserve a reread, don't they? And last but certainly not least, what's the best piece of advice you've been given to date?
Ian MacRae: It's challenging to narrow down a particular single piece of advice, but sometimes the best question people have asked me has just been why? Why are you doing this? And it doesn't matter if it's in business, personal life, relationship stuff, just saying why, why are you doing this? And as getting me to think about it a bit, because I find sometimes, I don't know if anyone else can relate to this, but I end up just kind of going along with things or doing things and then not thinking about why I'm doing them until much later. Especially sometimes with work, I end up going along with a project, getting halfway and realizing why am I doing this? I think it's just a good question to continually ask yourself about most of the things you do.
Michelle Carvill: I think that's great. And it's anybody that knows me really will know that it's the question I always ask why, why are we doing that? Why aren't we doing that? So yeah, it's a great question and I think that's a good piece of advice to share with anybody. Question that why.
Michelle Carvill: Ian, this has been wonderful to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for giving me your time and for coming on and sharing your insights. I think you are my first millennial on the podcast, so thank you for that. You can take that badge and if people want to find out more about you, where can they find you? Where do they need to go to?
Ian MacRae: Yeah, I've got videos related to psychology, business psychology, leadership, on YouTube. So I'm Ian MacRae on there. And if you want to talk to me on LinkedIn, I'm Ian MacRae there. Twitter, I'm Ian MacRae, or if you just Google me, Ian MacRae, psychology or creative business or anything like that, I will come up and we'll have that conversation with anyone.
Michelle Carvill: Fantastic, so thank you again for being on the podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Ian MacRae: Yeah. Thank you very much. I've enjoyed it.
Michelle Carvill: You've been listening to the get social connected leader podcast. Thank you to my guests and indeed, thank you to you for tuning in. Please do feel free to share the podcast with colleagues and friends who you think will enjoy it and indeed subscribe to tune inn for more episodes. You'll find the podcast and all the usual platforms and all episodes are also on our website, Carvilllcreative.co.ukforward/podcasts. You'll also find some really useful digital and social resources on that side too, so be sure to check those out. So for now from me, Michelle Carvilll, your host on the podcast, thank you so much for tuning in, and goodbye.
Michelle Carvill: Ooh, PS, if you're a business leader with something to share around digital and social technologies, and you're keen to be a guest on the podcast, then I'd love to hear from you. You can email me michelle@Carvilllcreative.co.UK.