The Connected Leader - Caron Bradshaw

Michelle: Hello and welcome to the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast, where I, Michelle Carvill, interview business leaders around the practicalities of how, in this hyper connected digital age, they are embracing digital technologies to tune in, and connect, and communicate. You can find all episodes of the Podcast, together with show notes, via our website:

Michelle: On our very first episode of the Get Social Connected Leader podcast, I am delighted to have interviewed Caron Bradshaw. Caron is Chief Executive of Charity Finance Group. She joined the group in June, 2010 from the ICAEW, where she was Head of the Charity and Voluntary Sector. In addition to supporting a number of small charities and community organizations, Caron is a member of the NCVO's National Assembly, sits on the charity's SORP Committee, on a number of government working parties, is a member of the Church of England's Pension Board Audit and Risk Committee, and is Chair of the Board of the Directory of Social Change. She is named in the Top 30 UK Social influencers in Risk Compliance and RegTech, and Karen is avidly social. She's a Social CEO and has been named in the Top 30 Social CEOs in 2013, 2014, and 2015.

Michelle: Okay, great to have you on the show Caron. I've already given everybody a little bit of introduction to who you are and what you've done. Let's really kick off with the conversation then, around what we're talking about here on the Get Social Leadership Podcast, which is about leaders embracing social and digital technologies. You are the CEO of Charity Finance Group, and I know that you are active on social media. Can you tell me just a little bit about how you got started, why you got started?

Caron: Yeah, of course, of course. Pleasure to be here, by the way.

Caron: I started after a colleague at my previous place of employment, The Institute of Chartered Accountants, on Twitter of all places. I was very, very skeptical. He sort of wandered over to my desk and said, "Are you on Twitter?" And I scratched my head and asked him what on earth Twitter was, and wondered why people didn't just go and talk to each other.

Caron: I was really, really skeptical about it to begin with, but I thought, "Well, okay. This is the new thing, this is where we're supposed to be, so I'm going to have a look at it." And this was like 9, 10 years ago. I very, very quickly found that it was giving me access to information much more quickly, and to people that were not in my social circle or within my network, that were really incredibly powerful that could be useful to me in my work, could be useful to me in my career, and it didn't take long before I was pretty much hooked and convinced that it was a good thing. I haven't really turned back. I've used Twitter an awful lot in the intervening period. I've progressed onto LinkedIn. I've used Instagram. I'm starting to use Snapchat, but I'm a little less convinced about Snapchat at the moment, but I think that's probably just because I'm old and I find it difficult to get my head around how these things work.

Michelle: Great. You are really quite an early adopter from a leadership perspective, as to getting out there. That's not unusual that... I mean, that's unusual, but it's not unusual that the thing that hooks people, and it certainly was the thing that hooked me, was that accessibility to people that you wouldn't ordinarily be able to reach. I mean, if you found that... How has that played out in your role? How has that helped you reaching those networks and the connections that you've made? Are there any stories around that?

Caron: Yeah, absolutely, loads of them, in fact. I mean, from the quite funny stories, like becoming quite closely connected with somebody who was working in the charity space, who simply put out a tweet to say, "Has anyone got a 1920s dress I can wear?" through to lending a flute to somebody who then ended up working for me, was a brilliant member of staff. I don't think I'd have met, had we not had that sort of very social interaction.

Michelle: Yeah.

Caron: But then some very purely work-based ones. I happened to be sat on the train, few years back, and we were talking about social media and things that are work related, and a chap was sitting on the train and overheard me and led forward and we had a really interesting conversation. At the end of the train journey, I'd forgotten to take a business card and jot down anything other than his name. I subsequently looked him up on Twitter, connected with him, and he ended up giving a keynote speech at one of our conferences.

Caron: There are lots of ways in which it's been really incredibly useful from that personal perspective. But I think it's also given me greater insight into what happens in other people's work areas. That's really useful when you work in an organization like mine, where you are not a frontline deliverer of services, but rather a supporter of other organizations delivering frontline services. To really understand what's going on for them is a really powerful thing, when you're a service deliverer to others.

Michelle: Yeah.

Caron: Yeah, it's been great.

Michelle: That's part of it, isn't it? I know, is it something that I cover in Get Social? That, I think initially, when I speak to people, when I speak to... Over the years I've spoken to organizations, they say, "Oh, it's all about sharing things that people have had for their breakfast." I think we've moved on from that a little bit. But it isn't just about the sharing and the communicating. I mean, what you're talking about there is the tuning in, isn't it, really? Tuning in and listening to what is going on in your landscape, so that you are more informed.

Caron: Mm-hmm(affirmative). Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, this still is the [inaudible 00:06:30]. There still are people that put up what they had for lunch. And to be honest, when you talk about social media, it's important not to forget that there is the social element to it too. And if you only think about it as a media channel, then you can quite quickly, I think, either become stale, or dry, or broadcasty. All of those sorts of broadcasting aspects are very, very important. But if all you ever hear from someone is, them popping up now and again and saying, "Here's something to sell you," you aren't connecting in that social sense. I think in terms of the networking piece of it, this is a really powerful way which you can not just connect with people, but get to understand what's going on for them.

Caron: One of the things that I tend to use social media for in the morning, is just to tune into what's the lay of the land out there? What are the big things that are happening? What are the newsy items? Are there people that are doing big events today that are our members, for example? That I can go, "Congratulations," or encourage them, or share their information. Yeah, it is much more than just sharing your lunch or, [crosstalk 00:07:41] it's that real insight piece.

Michelle: Yeah. I think that's a very valid point, about the social aspect. Because they are social networks, and they're not broadcast channels. They can be very far reaching broadcast channels. But like you're saying, you don't want to lose that piece around being a human being, and finding out what makes people tick. Not just what's going on, but who are the people behind these organizations? That often comes up a lot when I'm training and coaching people and teams... is around the blend of personal and professional. How does that work for you, Caron? How do you balance that? Or if indeed you do. How do you manage that?

Caron: From my perspective, I don't have a great big line between Caron as a person and Caron as a professional. What I mean is, I don't have a persona. I don't have this sort of act that I put on. What you see is what you get. And you get this whether I'm in my professional capacity or my personal capacity.

Caron: Of course there are things that limit what I would say and the ways in which I might say them. There will be topics that I wouldn't engage with in a personal space because it's not relevant to my personal contacts. In the same way, I wouldn't interact with some topics because, that I would in a personal way on a professional basis, because they are either something that CFG has taken a particular line on, or they're particularly controversial, or they're nothing to do with CFG and me popping up and say something about the might take CFG in a different direction.

Caron: I am very cautious about ensuring that the voice that I give, when I am particularly on social media that is seen by others as opposed to internal users of social media, that what I'm putting out there is consistent with my role as CFJ. Because whatever I want to say, and this is a personal capacity, I am the CEO of CFG, and therefore I will be seen in that light.

Michelle: Absolutely. There's a responsibility that comes with that, isn't there?

Caron: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. I will engage with things that are completely personal. So if I'm having a terrible journey on the train, I will quite happily say, "Oh, come on x-link, can can you sort this out?" Or if I'm having a personal holiday, I might share a picture of my kids and I kayaking down a river in France. That sort of thing I would share and I wouldn't see that as being unprofessional. But I might not express strong views on a political side that I would to my friends in social sector, because it's not consistent with my role within CFG.

Michelle: No. You touched on the point around external social media and internal social media. I mean, and this is a really interesting point. Because when social technologies started, we always think about social media as very external facing, but in many ways, there were lots of internal facing social media channels, like Intranets for example, that were already around before these external, far-reaching social technologies were embraced.

Michelle: How do you, as an organization, encourage social technologies? I mean you're the leader, and I know you've been... You are recognized as a very social CEO, and you've been recognized for that for a number of years, because you've been out there and you were an early adopter, and you engage and embrace with these channels, and you're out there externally. How are you leading that and championing that if indeed you are, internally within the organization?

Caron: Well I think, in terms of the internal environment, I have been working long enough to have remembered life before the Internet and even before emails. I think what I have noticed, particularly in recent months, when we have adopted, for example, a Facebook Workplace for our internal communications, is the different tone and energy behind the conversations that go on on our Facebook Workplace versus the email communications that go on.

Caron: And I think that what it enables, and I certainly encouraged, is that playfulness within the work environment that I think can really be a lubricant to innovation. I think that when you are asking people to be formal, the pressure to provide a fully formed thought or a well business-planned activity, sometimes stifle a good idea emerging.

Caron: Whereas where you have given permission to play and to be less formal, and I think that is very much encouraged by places like Workplace or tools like Workplace, what you get I think is much more creativity and much more friendship and fun, that enable some of those really sparky ideas to just emerge in ways that they wouldn't have done had you only had your all staff email. I would say that the Intranet side of things, I have seen some Internets that worked really well, but I haven't experienced many.

Michelle: No. I love that idea of the freedom. That because we're so used to, in many ways, the freedom of those technologies externally, when they are placed internally, it's almost habitual, isn't it? That you then carry on just having that authentic way of communicating because it's a way that you've been communicating externally on that channel. It's great that you've seen that freedom. When people don't feel the fear is there, or the formality is there, they can be a bit freer and that does open up, like you say, creativity.

Caron: Yeah. I think that what a lot of leaders would be fearful of in that environment, is that you would be giving carte blanche to people to sit and play for hours on something that isn't productive or work-based. But the reality is that they're on, hours and hours being sunk into the team, whiling away their time having private chats on Facebook Workplace, it is actually naturally becoming a work-based tool. The playfulness is aimed at work, rather than the work is facilitating pure play. That I think is an important distinction.

Michelle: That is really interesting.

Caron: The other thing I'd say around you... You asked how do I... How does social media play out generally for the teams? One of the things that we do do, is encourage people to tweet and to have a presence in social media, on social media platforms, in their own light.

Caron: What you will get, for example, is individuals with their own Twitter handles. A good example would be my HR Coordinator, who will share with me some of the interesting things that are very specific to her interests around HR and leadership and organizational development. She'll happily share those with me, because she knows that I have a similar interest in that leadership, and enrichment, and some of the more cutting edge aspects. Those things like, what's around kindness and love in the workplace, those sorts of things. You get to start seeing an individual expanding their own specific area of work but not necessarily only through the medium of the formal training or the formal channels that exist within the constraints of the normal workplace.

Michelle: Yeah. So it's encouraged for the whole of the... Well, for many of your organization, to be able to do that. Not to only play internally with the social technologies that are being enabled, but also to have their own identities and to share and communicate... Are there guidelines that steer that encouragement?

Caron: Well, I wouldn't say that we've got formal guidelines in the sense that there is a, "Here is a set of social media dos and do nots." We do have, and have had, trading. Individuals, when they are tweeting for CFG's purposes, have had some support around what those sorts of things might look like. We also have the same sorts of guidelines that we would give to them, for example, in networking out a physical event. We have an annual fundraising dinner, for example. I would say to my team at that event, "Do let your hair down and network, but remember you are in work environment." And it's the same sort of thing on social media. "Do remember that when you're out there, if you say that you work at CFG, you're always going to be seen through that lens." Therefore we wouldn't police what they say in the same way that I wouldn't stand on somebody's shoulder at a networking event, waiting to hear what they said. You have to set the parameters and then give people freedom to operate within them as adults.

Michelle: Yeah. And there's trust, isn't there? It's kind [crosstalk 00:17:29] the best judgment. You've got to trust your employees and your team. I mean this is very inspirational.

Michelle: What have you learned so far? I mean, have there been challenges? Have there been any challenges that you've had to overcome? Or, what's been the learning so far with engaging social as an organization and indeed as a leader engaging it and embracing it within the organization?

Caron: Well I think for the organization as a whole, there are clearly moments at which we have, I suspect as any other organization has, put things out and then thought, "Oh crumbs, that's not right." And yes, it does have a degree of permanency, in the sense that somebody could have screen grabbed or somebody may have cached the information. But most mistakes you can rectify, and most mistakes are not going to bring you to your knees. If they are upsetting your audience because you've chosen poor language or you haven't expressed yourself in a way that supports, it confuses, those sorts of things, a well placed apology or a rectification can easily resolve those. The learning has been, to all of our team actually, try it. Don't try and overthink things. If something doesn't feel like it reads right, just delete it and try again. As an organization, I think that that's one of the key learnings.

Caron: Another one is that this can very, very easily suck all of your time, and therefore you have to strike a balance. I think that in the early days of using it as a work tool, I think a lot of people felt that they needed to be on it 24/7, almost like the emails have become ruler. That it's coming, so I need to instantly respond. The reality is, you can't do that and drive forward your activities in a manageable way. You end up spending all your time responding to emails, responding to tweets, responding to this instant communication, and you can't do that. One of both, organizationally and my personal learning, has been to not try and be a slave to the notification button, but actually to put some time aside regularly throughout the day to check in. I do also check in if I have a five minute slotted, it's too little time to start something else. Then I will have a quick look and catch up to see whether anything's changed or if there's something new that I would value knowing about.

Caron: From a personal perspective, I think the other aspects that I have learned is to treat it in much the same way that I do with a physical network event. Again, I would not tweet, for example, if I have had anything to drink, if something's really annoyed me, I will try not to give an instant response to it.

Michelle: Yeah.

Caron: That there are things like that around personal restraint that I recognize in myself that I have an opinion on almost everything. And that's something not to necessarily always express.

Michelle: No, especially not at to thousands of people, millions of people.

Caron: Right.

Michelle: Brilliant. You're really fitting this into your working life and it almost sounds like it's now no longer something that you actively do, it's just part and parcel of what you do.

Caron: Yeah, absolutely. One of the first things I do when I get in the office in the morning, is to open a range of different social media applications. And, as I say, I won't necessarily have them blinking at me throughout the day, in much the same way that I no longer look at my emails every time they come in. I look at them in chunks of time through the day.

Michelle: Yeah.

Caron: It is embedded in the work. It's part of the job.

Michelle: It's part of the job and you're managing it. Because I think that's where... A lot of the pushback is, "Oh I don't have time for this. I'm worried I'm going to screw it up and I'm going to say the wrong things and upset everybody," and the general fear. But the time aspect is... Yes, I do. I agree, Caron. I think that people, particularly earlier on, used to think that you have to set aside very specific time to do this, or that you would be completely tied up in knots throughout the entire day. Like you say, being a slave to the notification button. But it's all on your terms, isn't it?

Caron: It is, it is. Maybe this is one thing where us oldies have got a little bit of an advantage over the younger ones that have grown up with this. I remember receiving letters. I remember how fax amended the speed with which people expected you to respond. The telephoning in a work context would expect you to respond immediately. You had this sort of increasing pace, whereas my kids' generation, they've grown up with this. There is that immediacy and that desire and need to continuously respond to what's there.

Caron: I think perhaps one of the challenges that we have as leaders in workplaces, is to ensure that the people that have grown up with social media don't feel like that demand for instant response drives that their day. But rather, that they are in control, that they can manage their time, and that it won't be seen as lacking in customer service or not giving an appropriate response. They do have that greater power that maybe they don't feel because so far, all of their social engagement through media has been in a social space and not a workspace.

Michelle: Yeah. I think that's really interesting to see how... Because if we think about it, it's almost the adoption of social media has been teaching people, "This is what you to do. We have to... There has to be a certain level of responsiveness, otherwise, that upsets people." But now we're moving into the reality of, but managing that responsiveness, isn't it? So that it works for the organization.

Caron: Yeah.

Michelle: Yeah. That's really interesting. What would you say, because I suspect there's a lot of people who are tuned in, who will tune into this Podcast and are thinking, "Oh my goodness, we're nowhere near this," or, "We don't give our people the freedom for this." Or that they themselves aren't involved with it because of the lot of the fears and those aspects, well the time aspects that you've touched on, or they just don't feel it's there place. It's not what they need to be doing. What would advice would you give to somebody who's sitting there thinking, how do I even start with this?

Caron: Hmm. Well, I think the, how do I even start with it? is best answered by just getting on and doing. Setting up a Twitter account and a LinkedIn account, but not necessarily doing all of it. You don't have to suddenly appear on all platforms, just pick one and try it.

Caron: It is about, what is the use that you are trying to make of it? Is this something about you getting your personal brand out? Or is this about extending your personal brand into a different area? For example, LinkedIn I think is very much more about me as an individual, although I do use a lot of the posting of events and getting involved in conversations in a positive way. But actually, it started as being effectively, "Here is who I am and here are the connections that I have," and it was very useful for us to be able to reach out to individuals who might want to speak for us for example, who I don't have connections with in other ways.

Caron: Whereas Twitter is much more, I think, a more of a light touch and probably would be my starting point if I was saying to and organization, "How do you engage with social media for the first time?" That probably would be a good a starting point as any to set up an organizational ID, but also to set up an ID that is very personal. So the CEO, or the Fundraising Director or whoever. To start small and slow but regular. Don't wash it with a load of broadcasting and then disappear for months. It's far better to pop up once a day or a couple of times a week and to do that regularly with low volume, than it is to flood it and disappear again.

Michelle: Yeah. Do you get support, Caron, with anything that you're doing? Does your team help you or is it all you? Because I mentioned this and I talk about this a lot in Get Social. About when it's an agency or it's the comms team tweeting on behalf of the leader or the CEO, sometimes that's very apparent. Just doesn't come across as authentic. But of course, the CEO's got a job, a big job. Whilst this is, in my view, a means of communicating in a connected way, for those not doing it, this is another thing, isn't it? Do you get support? Does anybody help you, or is it purely you?

Caron: I think, well in my own personal case, I do most of it myself. I think it is a choice for individuals to say, "How much support do I need to get and for what purpose?" It differs between different platforms. If I happen to be writing a blog on an area and it was perhaps, let's say, following on from the budget. I might get the bulk of that content, in terms of factual content, given to me by a colleague. I will then... It's known internally "Caronify." I will "Caronify something and put in, find a thread, that gives the story, that would be much more authentic to my tone of voice. Because if it's going out in my name, it needs to sound like me.

Michelle: Exactly.

Caron: Therefore, those sorts of things I'll get help with. Where it is tweeting on something as part of a campaign, then I may have URLs set up for me or some tweetable phrases to use. But again, it would be there to help as a building blocks or straw man rather than to do it for me. And I certainly wouldn't give over control of my own Twitter handle to a colleague. That's my identity and I only speak with my voice.

Caron: Yes, I think you can get as much help as you need but you have to really, I think, strive for that authentic voice. Otherwise, people will see through it. If somebody tweets on your behalf constantly, people will see through it.

Michelle: Yeah, and it is. It is so apparent when that is happening. Really, really insightful. Really useful.

Michelle: What would you say... I mean, there's a lot about as a leader. Leadership now, and the changes in leadership, and we're in a hyper connected world, and there's a lot of challenges for leaders in keeping up with everything. There's a lot of change, there's a lot of uncertainty. Like you've addressed, the new people, the new workers coming into the workplace, have got different experiences. There's some very positive aspects of that, but there were also challenges with that. There's a lot of change. There's a lot that digital is changing for the modern leader. Given that you are there and you are doing this and you are embracing these technologies and you're very much in the now of being a leader in this digitally connected time, what piece of advice would you give to fellow leaders about getting involved and embracing these technologies?

Caron: I think my advice would be, don't think that you can not do this. Because, this is the world in which we are now living. And in the same way that people may say, "Well, I don't have time to do the touchy feely stuff of leadership, that it's all about outputs." It's not. To me this is part of the modern job of a leader. You have to be connected. If you aren't connected, if you're not in the space in which the world is moving, the landscape out there is increasingly digital. The work that we do is increasingly using artificial intelligence and digital technologies. If we aren't going to be part of that, then we will be left behind.

Caron: Of course different organizations will have a different level of participation in that space. Whether you are mildly affected by it now or deeply affected by it now, at some point in the future, this will be now. It's like I was saying earlier about the difference between having no web, no email. It is now just the way that we do things. There will be a point at which opting out is not an option.

Michelle: No. Also, I mean, there's so much opportunity, isn't there? To be connected with your employees as well as connected with your customers, connected with your landscape. I refer to it as almost, you can walk the floor at scale. If you've got teams of people, let's say they're in different continents, it's very difficult to get round and meet, and know, and understand, and learn what's really going on the ground with your teams, isn't it? Internally as well. The technology is really open up that opportunity to be visible but also to listen.

Caron: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. CFG's quite a small organization, so I don't have that problem of having a remoteness from my team. But I've absolutely seen the way in which other large scale organization CEOs have used it in a way to really shorten the distance between the person at the top of the tree and the people who are working at a more frontline level.

Caron: People like Sacha Romanovitch, who was the CEO at Grant Thornton. The way in which she used that to shortcut and cut out the levels so that there was that much more personal access, I think was really inspirational. In a huge organization, a global organization. And you have other examples in your book. I absolutely think it is a way in which you can do that.

Caron: But I think the other thing about social media, if you allow yourself to be authentic, is it is a good way to show up and be seen. If you don't stick to the formal inverted commas, cold professional, versus personal. If you actually allow your staff to see you as an individual, as a human, to share those things about you that give you a more rounded exposure to your teams, so they're not just seeing you as the boss, but they're seeing you as a person. It not only helps them understand you, it helps them challenge you. And we need to be challenged. If I'm the smartest person in the room, if I'm the one with all the answers, then frankly I'm in the wrong room.

Michelle: Yeah, I love that. I love, love, love that. Brilliant. In the spirit of getting to know you a little bit more, because you have just amazing insights and brilliant, brilliant, brilliant... Very generous with telling us what goes on within CFG and indeed with your own experiences, and I know you've been doing this a long time. You've been there a long time, so it's very inspirational for people that are just starting out or aren't clear where to go or what to do. Lots of brilliant insights in there.

Michelle: But in the spirit of getting to know you as Caron a little bit more, because I'm all about that too, I've got some Learn About the Leader style quick fire questions which I'm just going to fire at you. I'm just going to see where it goes.

Michelle: Caron, if you could change one thing in the world, what would it be?

Caron: That's a very short question with probably too long an answer. But I guess if I could pick one thing, I would love us to be much more comfortable both in professional circles, so in the workplace, but also in public policy circles, in talking about love and emotions, human connectivity, because we're all people at the end of the day.

Michelle: We are 100%. Oh, I love that. Brilliant. Which book have you read recently that's inspired you?

Caron: Oh, I'm a bit of a-

Michelle: You don't have to say my book.

Caron: ...prolific reader. Ha, ha. Well, I was going to say, apart from your book, which I have read it, and it's jolly, jolly good, and I would certainly recommend reading it.

Caron: In all seriousness, it really is a jolly good read-

Michelle: Thank you.

Caron: And it's very, very digestible. It's got lots and lots of practical stuff in there. Sorry, I'm digressing.

Caron: No. The book that I've read most recently, that really had a huge impact on me for a very short book, was something called On a White Horse by Cathy Phelan Watkins.

Michelle: Oh, I haven't heard of that one. That's going on my list.

Caron: No, but it was written by the lady who now runs Civil Society Media, about her late husband Dan Phelan, who was the founder of Civil Society Media. It is beautiful, and inspirational, and moving, and funny, and it's lovely. A very easy and short read. I read it in less than 24 hours, which probably was because I sat there and reveled it down. Hooked, hooked.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Brilliant. That sounds great. I've written that down. Finally, last but not least by any means. What's the best piece of advice you've been given to date?

Caron: Well, I was told by my mentor, challenged by my mentor I should say, to say yes more. Which I found quite challenging because I thought that I was somebody who said yes quite a lot. But I realized that there's an lots of things that I say no to because of, if you like, self-limiting factors. So, "Oh, I couldn't do that," or, "They wouldn't like it if," or some of that imposter human, classic female thing, Imposter Syndrome. All of the reasons why you shouldn't do something as opposed to all the reasons why you should. And that's been a really interesting experiment. I've said yes to a few things that I wish I hadn't said yes to with hindsight. But I've also said yes to a few things that I definitely would've said no to, but that have been really powerful experiences that have challenged me and made me think in a very different way.

Michelle: What a great challenge. That mental set you, I love that. That's brilliant. Okay, thank you so much. We're going to round up now, Caron. How do people find out more about Charity Finance Group and the work that you do?

Caron: Oh, well I would say visit our website, which is or come along to one of our events or preferably both.

Michelle: Fantastic. I will pop that link and any details to get in touch with Caron in the show notes. And for now Caron, I'm going to say a huge thank you for coming onto the Podcast. It's been an absolute delight and a pleasure to speak with you, to learn more about what's going on within CFG, and your views and insights around digital technology and social communication. Thank you sincerely for being my guest on the Podcast.

Caron: It's been an absolute pleasure.

Michelle: You've been listening to the Get Social Connected Leader Podcast. Thank you to my guest and indeed thank you to you for tuning in. Please do feel free to share the Podcast with colleagues and friends who you think will enjoy it, and indeed subscribed to tune in for more episodes. You'll find the Podcast on all the usual platforms, and all episodes are also on our website: You'll also find some really useful digital and social resources on that site too, so be sure to check those out. For now, from me, Michelle Carvill, your host on the Podcast, thank you so much for tuning in and goodbye.

Michelle: Oh, P.S., if you're a business leader with something to share around digital and social technologies, and you're keen to be a guest on the Podcast, then I'd love to hear from you. You can email me: